Is ColdFusion harming itself?
ColdFusionI really hope the following doesn't come across too preachy, but it is something that I have been thinking about for some time now.
Without a doubt ColdFusion is a *far* better language than it was when I started 7 years ago. With the maturation of the language, the development community too has matured to a point where there are virtually no beginner "how-to" discussions or blog postings, and more and more advanced theory discussions dealing with complex objects and design patterns. As I have been growing along with this trend I have been very excited about this direction and it is fun to watch the community buzz with each new concept and technique.
However... What are we offering the beginners? I am afraid that unfortunately as we continue to only cater to ourselves, we are blocking some new developers from being about to ease into the language. As was stated on the CFCDev list (which incidentally has had virtually no tech posting lately), there are no longer any intermediate questions being asked. Why is this? Are there no more questions? Or are there no new people asking questions? I admittedly haven't listened to this weeks' ColdFusion Weekly, but from a statement made by Peter Bell on the CFCDev list, they apparently speak on this issue as well.
At a recent DFW CFUG meeting I posed a question asking why we see the same few faces at our meetings, when we have a much higher member base. One of the newer developers mentioned that maybe the topics we are covering in the meetings are too complex and are going over people's heads a bit. This caused me to reflect a bit and wonder who exactly are we trying to cater to and what are we accomplishing by having a ColdFusion user group.
I have often heard that when a church stops having an active youth group, you can start the timer counting down to its death, as there will eventually be no one to take the lead when the elders are gone. I would hate to think that the same scenario could exist for our community.
I would encourage all of us to consider this and think about what this might mean for ColdFusion. Perhaps for those of us who blog, we should not forget to include *all* the community rather than just ourselves.
todd said:
Dave - I agree with you. That is why I try to post thorough explanations of beginner/intermediate techniques. I think a lot of times when a CF newbie starts reading some of the blogs that are out there, they can easily get overwhelmed with all the OO and framework talk that goes on when they just want to learn some new techniques or better understand how/why something is done. I think it's important to break down some of these items so they can be easily understood. Then the newbie will have a better 'foundation' on which to build upon.
Can we do more to help? Are you and I the only ones who think this way? Would we be wasting our time?
Can we do more to help? Are you and I the only ones who think this way? Would we be wasting our time?
Peter Bell said:
Hi Dave,
Really nice post. When I think of all the blogs and all of the postings I have seen over the last year or so, I think there two issues. Firstly, I am sure CF could do with a bunch more "gettign started" tutorials, so there is a place for that. However I'd argue the biggest issue isn't the content but the lack of formalized discovery mechanisms. I would love if there were one or a few centralized recourses (other than Googling!) for accessing all of the great CF posts out there.
Think Brian Rinaldi's open source roundup and then imaging the same for "Introducing Objects", "Security", etc. It would be lovely if there was a "go to place" categorized by topic. Then there is House of Fusion. I know they are "for profit", but we need people like Michael and Judith creating that kind of space.
Solutions would be to have subject matter experts keeping an eye on postings and then putting together a list of well organized resource for their areas. Maybe we should just consider some public del.icio.us lists?!
Best Wishes,
Peter
Really nice post. When I think of all the blogs and all of the postings I have seen over the last year or so, I think there two issues. Firstly, I am sure CF could do with a bunch more "gettign started" tutorials, so there is a place for that. However I'd argue the biggest issue isn't the content but the lack of formalized discovery mechanisms. I would love if there were one or a few centralized recourses (other than Googling!) for accessing all of the great CF posts out there.
Think Brian Rinaldi's open source roundup and then imaging the same for "Introducing Objects", "Security", etc. It would be lovely if there was a "go to place" categorized by topic. Then there is House of Fusion. I know they are "for profit", but we need people like Michael and Judith creating that kind of space.
Solutions would be to have subject matter experts keeping an eye on postings and then putting together a list of well organized resource for their areas. Maybe we should just consider some public del.icio.us lists?!
Best Wishes,
Peter
Ben Forta said:
I could not agree with you more. And the CF team agrees too, which is why CFMX7 had more Getting Started material in the product as part of the default install than any version previously.
With all of the debate around frameworks and adding more Java functionality and so on it is far to easy to forget that the vast majority of CF users will never use any of that, and there are many more absolute beginners who have yet to experience CF and have much to gain by doing so.
Well said!
--- Ben
With all of the debate around frameworks and adding more Java functionality and so on it is far to easy to forget that the vast majority of CF users will never use any of that, and there are many more absolute beginners who have yet to experience CF and have much to gain by doing so.
Well said!
--- Ben
Phil said:
Dave, great post. I wholeheartedly agree with you. There aren't those beginner type tutuorials or even blog postings out there. There's really only one book for starters, the WACK, and the mere size of it can be very intimidating to someone. I only get digests deliverd for many of the CF lists because the topics tend to be somewhat advanced and specific to someone's situation. I also think when beginners come on board, they start to see posts on Fusebox, Mach, Model-Glue, etc., and can feel overwhelmed on where to start. Maybe there needs to be a cfbeginner.com or something. Also, there aren't many beginner type items on the Adobe (and before that Macromedia) developer center. Also, I'd be interested to see what Adobe's training is like for the initial ColdFusion training class and the makeup of its students. I just wonder how much new blood is really coming into the community. Well, I guess that's my extended .02, Phil
todd said:
Ben - the Getting Started stuff is great - _but_ here is the million dollar question - how do you reach the people that just refuse to RTFM?
Online resources (like blogs and wikis), to me, are the easiest to learn from. It's almost like being spoon-fed a lesson at a time. Plus, the added benefit of comment threads allow you to question/discuss the material (almost like an online classroom).
I think the hardest part for beginners though with blog learning is "where do i start"? Like Peter, I wholeheartedly agree with the need for an online resource - almost like an online WACK...maybe a Wiki? I don't know all the answers, but I think we're missing the boat for some beginners due to the lack of a formalized online resource. The cfcookbook is a start, but it's more prescriptive I think.
As I said above, I'd be more than happy to participate in the creation of anything that can help lower the learning curve for people getting started.
Online resources (like blogs and wikis), to me, are the easiest to learn from. It's almost like being spoon-fed a lesson at a time. Plus, the added benefit of comment threads allow you to question/discuss the material (almost like an online classroom).
I think the hardest part for beginners though with blog learning is "where do i start"? Like Peter, I wholeheartedly agree with the need for an online resource - almost like an online WACK...maybe a Wiki? I don't know all the answers, but I think we're missing the boat for some beginners due to the lack of a formalized online resource. The cfcookbook is a start, but it's more prescriptive I think.
As I said above, I'd be more than happy to participate in the creation of anything that can help lower the learning curve for people getting started.
Ryan Everhart said:
Dave,
I too agree with your post, very well said. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being high, I feel like I'm around a 5 or 6 lately with a lot to learn. Some of the discussions on the CFCDev and Mach-ii lists go right over my head and then others I THINK I understand.
As for the beginers, what about places like the <a href="http://www.coldfusioncookbook.com/">ColdFusion Cook Book</a> and <a href="http://www.easycfm.com">EasyCFM</a>. Those are two sites I visit ever now and again to get some basic stuff.
I've been trying to think of content for my blog so I might take your thoughts and run with them. I don't know if know enough yet to cater to the intermediate community, but maybe I can share with the newbies.
Thanks for the idea,
Ryan
I too agree with your post, very well said. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being high, I feel like I'm around a 5 or 6 lately with a lot to learn. Some of the discussions on the CFCDev and Mach-ii lists go right over my head and then others I THINK I understand.
As for the beginers, what about places like the <a href="http://www.coldfusioncookbook.com/">ColdFusion Cook Book</a> and <a href="http://www.easycfm.com">EasyCFM</a>. Those are two sites I visit ever now and again to get some basic stuff.
I've been trying to think of content for my blog so I might take your thoughts and run with them. I don't know if know enough yet to cater to the intermediate community, but maybe I can share with the newbies.
Thanks for the idea,
Ryan
todd said:
Phil:
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/9/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/8/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/8/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/10...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/9/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/8/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/8/...
http://cfsilence.com/blog/client/index.cfm/2006/10...
Andrew Powell said:
The blog entry that ColdFusion Weekly was discussing can be found here:
http://www.infoaccelerator.net/client/index.cfm/20...
http://www.infoaccelerator.net/client/index.cfm/20...
Ben Nadel said:
Dave,
Nice post. CFSkill.com is trying help people move to the next level. I was trying to participate with CFSkill, but it was actually too advanced for me. For that reason, I have taken it upon myself to built a Demo ColdFusion Application from the ground up with a highly iterative and highly explained / commented journey. This is primarily for me so that I can "think out load" about applicaiton development and one day be able to tackle higher level frameworks, but ultimately, I think it would be awesome as a teaching tool for anyone at any level as it is going to (currently a work in progress) really step by step build and application from scratch.
Anyway, still working on it ( http://www.bennadel.com/skin-spider/ ) , but I agree with you that we cannot forget about the *little people*. The CF community is getting so advanced that half the time I feel like the little people and i have been doing this for the better part of a decade.
Nice post. CFSkill.com is trying help people move to the next level. I was trying to participate with CFSkill, but it was actually too advanced for me. For that reason, I have taken it upon myself to built a Demo ColdFusion Application from the ground up with a highly iterative and highly explained / commented journey. This is primarily for me so that I can "think out load" about applicaiton development and one day be able to tackle higher level frameworks, but ultimately, I think it would be awesome as a teaching tool for anyone at any level as it is going to (currently a work in progress) really step by step build and application from scratch.
Anyway, still working on it ( http://www.bennadel.com/skin-spider/ ) , but I agree with you that we cannot forget about the *little people*. The CF community is getting so advanced that half the time I feel like the little people and i have been doing this for the better part of a decade.
Brian Rinaldi said:
I came to a similar conclusion one day at the Boston CFUG. I was the only one doing anything OO or using a framework. We of the CF blogging community (and by this I mean me), tend to lose sight of where the community is as a whole because we have this tight circle of people whom we "watch" every day and who have similar propensities and skillsets for the most part. I actually left that meeting and started writing my objects and frameworks series of posts which are designed (I think) for beginners. The perspective I try to take is that I was there, very new to OO and frameworks and such not so long ago and I am still figuring it out.
However, your post begs the question also, are we focusing on OO and frameowrks to the detriment of other "advanced" topics as well? Yes, probably we are. However, I do see a wide range of levels represented on CF-Talk. I think the "death" of CFCDev (sorry if that upsets anyone, but I have even contemplated unsibscribing lately) was brought on more by spammers than by the CF community. The activity after the outage and move has been far less than it was prior, with still a noticeable portion being spam. I am curious if CF-Talk activity perked up since...perhaps the questiosn didn't go away, just move elsewhere?
However, your post begs the question also, are we focusing on OO and frameowrks to the detriment of other "advanced" topics as well? Yes, probably we are. However, I do see a wide range of levels represented on CF-Talk. I think the "death" of CFCDev (sorry if that upsets anyone, but I have even contemplated unsibscribing lately) was brought on more by spammers than by the CF community. The activity after the outage and move has been far less than it was prior, with still a noticeable portion being spam. I am curious if CF-Talk activity perked up since...perhaps the questiosn didn't go away, just move elsewhere?
cfjeff said:
BINGO !!!! WE HAVE A WINNER !!!!!
It's nice to know that CF has technical underpinnings but it's not what the customer is buying. I started useing CF because IT IS SIMPLE and continue using it because IT WORKS.
The connection with Flash and Adobe is exciting, but I will not be doing any FLEX. It's just more complicated than I need. On the other hand, I love the Flash charts and would use more of the PDF and Flash if it was as easy to use.
I feel better now, sorry for the all-caps.
It's nice to know that CF has technical underpinnings but it's not what the customer is buying. I started useing CF because IT IS SIMPLE and continue using it because IT WORKS.
The connection with Flash and Adobe is exciting, but I will not be doing any FLEX. It's just more complicated than I need. On the other hand, I love the Flash charts and would use more of the PDF and Flash if it was as easy to use.
I feel better now, sorry for the all-caps.
Alan Dix said:
Nando is sort of on this track too.
http://aria-media.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/9/27/The...
Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to post "Newbie" stuff once in awhile. We were all newbies once, and and Nando states, we all kind of feel like Newbies once in awhile.
http://aria-media.com/blog/index.cfm/2006/9/27/The...
Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to post "Newbie" stuff once in awhile. We were all newbies once, and and Nando states, we all kind of feel like Newbies once in awhile.
Michael Dinowitz said:
You do know that there is a CF-Newbie list that is actually active, right? Have been seeing the basic and intermediate level questions being asked on CF-Talk? Have you read the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update, which is designed to be very easy on the newbie while still bringing heavy, high level content?
No disrespect, but is seems like your missing something in your post.
No disrespect, but is seems like your missing something in your post.
Aaron J Lynch said:
Michael, while that is a good advertisement for your stuff, I think the point of Dave's post was that the majority of active bloggers are exhibiting this trend. From all of the comments it seems like he isn't the only one who has this perception.
~AJL
~AJL
Michael Dinowitz said:
Forgive me if I'm reacting defensivly, but I was not advertising my lists or journal. If I was, I'd have included links.
While you are focusing on his mention of blogs, I'm focusing on the point of discussion and intermediate level questions being asked. The point does not change though. There are many places where beginning and intermediate questions are being asked. There are many sites catering to these levels of questions. I can tell you about a few other things going on, but some of them will probably fall under the heading of advertising.
Blogs are not going to be one of those places as bloggers are usually giving their own thoughts and these thoughts are probably going to be high level. But then again, look at Ray's blog posts which are always informative. (advertising for Ray now)
While you are focusing on his mention of blogs, I'm focusing on the point of discussion and intermediate level questions being asked. The point does not change though. There are many places where beginning and intermediate questions are being asked. There are many sites catering to these levels of questions. I can tell you about a few other things going on, but some of them will probably fall under the heading of advertising.
Blogs are not going to be one of those places as bloggers are usually giving their own thoughts and these thoughts are probably going to be high level. But then again, look at Ray's blog posts which are always informative. (advertising for Ray now)
Sean Corfield said:
And everyone here needs to bear in mind that the vast majority of ColdFusion developers don't read blogs and many of them aren't subscribed to mailing lists either (let alone attending CFUGs). The ColdFusion blogosphere is a very distorted view of the "real" ColdFusion landscape.
cf-talk and the associated lists are more representative than blogs but even there only a small percentage of ColdFusion developers are represented and the traffic is so high that many people who view programming as their job simply don't feel they can spend the time to read all that stuff.
This is why, in response to the comments about skills gaps, I suggested that what we all need to do is find one or more ColdFusion developers who doesn't currently read any blogs or lists or attend a CFUG and encourage them to do so. We need to reach out an involve those "9-5" programmers and help them see the benefits the "community" has to offer.
cf-talk and the associated lists are more representative than blogs but even there only a small percentage of ColdFusion developers are represented and the traffic is so high that many people who view programming as their job simply don't feel they can spend the time to read all that stuff.
This is why, in response to the comments about skills gaps, I suggested that what we all need to do is find one or more ColdFusion developers who doesn't currently read any blogs or lists or attend a CFUG and encourage them to do so. We need to reach out an involve those "9-5" programmers and help them see the benefits the "community" has to offer.
Aaron J Lynch said:
Another thing to consider, is that while many developers don't actively read blogs or lists...They probably do search the internet for solutions to problems/challenges they might face.
Having well-indexed (by the search engines) bloggers posting good entry-level tech will likely add to the available search returns for those 9-5 developers. And maybe even hook them in to your blogs! :)
Just sayin'
~AJL
Having well-indexed (by the search engines) bloggers posting good entry-level tech will likely add to the available search returns for those 9-5 developers. And maybe even hook them in to your blogs! :)
Just sayin'
~AJL
Christopher Yager said:
Another thing to think about is that ColdFusion today is not what it was in the Allaire days. I know that I and alot of others matured as the product was maturing, so a newbie today is coming into a product much more advanced then what we saw when we first discovered it.
Two years ago I spent alot of time training my "procedural developers" oo design and development, and we upgraded our Public facing sales flow to Mach-II, which has been a god send as requirements keep changing. I can't speak for Adobe, but it seemed like Macromedia as a whole was definately pushing developers to OO development. If this is still the track Adobe is pushing for, then I would think those beginning tutorials should still be wrapped around entry level OO concepts.
What troubles me more than seeing a lack of entry level tutorials, is the focus of www.adobe.com, it seems to me that they are more focused on the designer than the developer. Let's take the true infancy of a ColdFusion developer, I would assume one of the first places they would start is probably going to be www.adobe.com (the source). At a first glance of the site I am already overwhelmed and the product list is so vast now, that bubbling up any detailed information would be difficult. I just remember all the tutorial teasers on the old Macromedia Site and A "Developer" main menu tab. To me it seems that "ColdFusion" has been relegated to a single link taking you to the product page. Where the front page focus seems to be on development. Just my opinion.
So I guess the challenge is, how do you ease someone into a technology from a simplicity point of view, when the product continues to become more complex inside a company that has become infinately more complex. But, at least it's easier to find the bigginers tutorial on adobe.com than it is to find the java beginers tutorial on SUN... and who wants to code a bicycle app anyhow. :P
Two years ago I spent alot of time training my "procedural developers" oo design and development, and we upgraded our Public facing sales flow to Mach-II, which has been a god send as requirements keep changing. I can't speak for Adobe, but it seemed like Macromedia as a whole was definately pushing developers to OO development. If this is still the track Adobe is pushing for, then I would think those beginning tutorials should still be wrapped around entry level OO concepts.
What troubles me more than seeing a lack of entry level tutorials, is the focus of www.adobe.com, it seems to me that they are more focused on the designer than the developer. Let's take the true infancy of a ColdFusion developer, I would assume one of the first places they would start is probably going to be www.adobe.com (the source). At a first glance of the site I am already overwhelmed and the product list is so vast now, that bubbling up any detailed information would be difficult. I just remember all the tutorial teasers on the old Macromedia Site and A "Developer" main menu tab. To me it seems that "ColdFusion" has been relegated to a single link taking you to the product page. Where the front page focus seems to be on development. Just my opinion.
So I guess the challenge is, how do you ease someone into a technology from a simplicity point of view, when the product continues to become more complex inside a company that has become infinately more complex. But, at least it's easier to find the bigginers tutorial on adobe.com than it is to find the java beginers tutorial on SUN... and who wants to code a bicycle app anyhow. :P
Sean Corfield said:
Christopher, you can go directly to the ColdFusion product page from the main "Products" menu where ColdFusion is one of just sixteen products listed (there are many more products in the Adobe fold). You can also go to ColdFusion from the "Solutions and Products" pod directly under the banner on the home page. Or you can get to the *developer center* from the "Communities" main menu item (separate options for designer / developer). I think your comment does a great disservice to both Adobe and to the many, many developers (and designers) who use their products.
Are you saying you're unhappy because ColdFusion is no longer owned by a "one-trick pony" where it was the main focus of a company? It seems to me that the budget and brand power of Adobe does more to benefit ColdFusion than Allaire could ever afford to. Look at the increased number of conferences for ColdFusion, look at the ever increasing attendance at those conferences! Look at how ColdFusion is promoted as the ideal back end for Flex (and how important Flex is to Adobe)!
Are you saying you're unhappy because ColdFusion is no longer owned by a "one-trick pony" where it was the main focus of a company? It seems to me that the budget and brand power of Adobe does more to benefit ColdFusion than Allaire could ever afford to. Look at the increased number of conferences for ColdFusion, look at the ever increasing attendance at those conferences! Look at how ColdFusion is promoted as the ideal back end for Flex (and how important Flex is to Adobe)!
Christopher Yager said:
My post was not meant to discredit what Adobe brings to the table for Coldfusion. I was just saying that since Adobe was in control, I have seen less focus on ColdFusion from a site content point of view. This may come from the sheer faact that their is so much more to cover at this point. And I always have been pleased that ColdFusion has been targeted as the data and service provider for Flex.
My only point is that for someone looking for the right web development language or a ColdFusion newbie, the site can be a little much to take in.
I apologize for sounding like I was taking a shot at Adobe... that was not my intention.
And I agree, as we come into contact with more jr. ColdFusion developers, we should introduce them to User Groups and the getting started pages.
My only point is that for someone looking for the right web development language or a ColdFusion newbie, the site can be a little much to take in.
I apologize for sounding like I was taking a shot at Adobe... that was not my intention.
And I agree, as we come into contact with more jr. ColdFusion developers, we should introduce them to User Groups and the getting started pages.
Sean Corfield said:
I'm not sure that the beginning Dreamweaver user or beginning Photoshop user or beginning {insert Adobe product here} user is going to face an easier / worse task that a beginning ColdFusion developer here? There is a developer center linked from each product (well, they are design centers from the design-centric products) and in each of those centers you'll find tutorials and getting started sections.
I'm genuinely trying to find out what we could do to make it better for new users for the products. You have some criticisms which I felt were unfounded because ColdFusion *is* featured on the home page and in the main menu (on every page) and developer tutorials etc are easy to find.
I agree that if you come to the site looking for just one product, it may be a bit overwhelming to see sixteen represented in the menus (Adobe has something like 75 products covered on the website so take comfort in ColdFusion being in the top 20%!). I think that might just be a fact of life with such a range of products.
Out of curiosity, I typed "coldfusion" into Google and the top results were: Adobe's ColdFusion product page, the wikipedia entry for ColdFusion, House of Fusion and the ColdFusion Developer's Journal (Sys-Con). Ben Forta's site is 6th on the list. The ColdFusion FAQ (derived from CF-Talk posts) and Fusion Authority are also on the first page of results.
What would you like to see done differently?
p.s. Don't forget that adobe.com is powered by ColdFusion (there are now thirty instances running on a ten server cluster!).
p.p.s. Dave, your captcha seems broken - it always fails the first time for me on Firefox OS X.
I'm genuinely trying to find out what we could do to make it better for new users for the products. You have some criticisms which I felt were unfounded because ColdFusion *is* featured on the home page and in the main menu (on every page) and developer tutorials etc are easy to find.
I agree that if you come to the site looking for just one product, it may be a bit overwhelming to see sixteen represented in the menus (Adobe has something like 75 products covered on the website so take comfort in ColdFusion being in the top 20%!). I think that might just be a fact of life with such a range of products.
Out of curiosity, I typed "coldfusion" into Google and the top results were: Adobe's ColdFusion product page, the wikipedia entry for ColdFusion, House of Fusion and the ColdFusion Developer's Journal (Sys-Con). Ben Forta's site is 6th on the list. The ColdFusion FAQ (derived from CF-Talk posts) and Fusion Authority are also on the first page of results.
What would you like to see done differently?
p.s. Don't forget that adobe.com is powered by ColdFusion (there are now thirty instances running on a ten server cluster!).
p.p.s. Dave, your captcha seems broken - it always fails the first time for me on Firefox OS X.
Raymond Camden said:
I know it is a bit off topic - but I saw cfcdev mentioned multiple times. We did suffer greatly - and we still have a spam issue. I'm going to try to work on that now. I know the memberlist is very low now. I'm not sure why. I mean - yes - the list did go balistic - but I'd hope folks would understand that stuff like that just happens - especially when we are talking about a _community_ resource being run for free.
Charles said:
I'm pretty much a beginner, in that for the last two/three years I've been doing some serious procedural code on a very large app. Before that I was a system admin and IT manager -- no programming experience at all.
While I agree something like a beginner's wiki would be awesome, at the same time, I've got Ray Camden's and bunch of other folks dialed up in my newsreader and read them frequently. Because I don't want to stay a beginner at this stuff. The more I try to emulate some of the real experts out there, the better I'm doing. So yes, more for beginners. But to those out there who are exploring bleeding edge stuff -- don't stop!
While I agree something like a beginner's wiki would be awesome, at the same time, I've got Ray Camden's and bunch of other folks dialed up in my newsreader and read them frequently. Because I don't want to stay a beginner at this stuff. The more I try to emulate some of the real experts out there, the better I'm doing. So yes, more for beginners. But to those out there who are exploring bleeding edge stuff -- don't stop!
Artikelverzeichnis said:
Thanks for very interesting article. btw. I really enjoyed reading all of your posts. It’s interesting to read ideas, and observations from someone else’s point of view… makes you think more. It’s really good written and I fully agree with You on main issue
.: HIDE REPLIES :.
Loading....